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fiction theory

The artist is not afraid


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The internet IS real life
default3, writing!wench
fiction_theory
I told myself I shouldn't/wouldn't post this, because I'm not looking to draw down wank or unproductive, spiraling conversations that amount to nothing and only make people tired and repeat the same old crap.

But then I thought, "No, I need to post this. If only for myself."

I am here to address a comment by a person I have no intention of engaging with, and that's not the norm for me. I like to try to give people a chance to respond because I do believe in the power of respectful dialogues, but in this case, I really don't see how any kind of respectful response is possible.

I do know that in this case, I'm not going to change this person's mind, I'm not going to persuade them of anything, and frankly, I'm not interested in trying.

I am interested in examining the comment (not the commenter, let's be clear on that) that was made because this person is not the sole holder of such beliefs, and it's something I want to address because it's something that I think holds back progress.

The comment in question is from Will Shetterly and can be found in the comments of this entry. ETA: The owner of the LJ in which this conversation took place has removed the comments. I unfortunately do not have screen caps.

This is the comment (in it's entirety)

Keep it simple: I'm the racefail asshole here. That I've been marching against racism since childhood in the '60s (when people got killed for it) to the recent march in Tucson against the latest stupid racist Arizona immigration law is irrelevant.

Out of curiosity, were you at that march? I didn't see you. But I'm sure your antiracist creds on the web are impeccable.




What is it that I am taking issue to, specifically. The question "out of curiosity, were you at that march?" and the later remark "I'm sure your antiracist creds on the web are impeccable".

Let's examine why I think these remarks are so completely full of fail that it stuns me.

"Were you at that march?"

The problem with impeaching someone's anti-racism based on attendance at a specific march or even public rallies and protests in general is that it assumes that a) attending such events is a more real, valid, and important means of expressing anti-racism than any other means, specifically online and b) that attendance is a feasible option for everyone.

Marching at a rally or attending a protest is all well and good, but it's not something that is an option for everyone. It's quite ablist to ask such a question as though the privilege of being able to attend excludes the antiracist work of those who use other venues.

A large protest of 7,000 people excludes a lot of folks who might very much want to attend.

Those with certain types of disabilities may find that it is inaccessible to them. I don't know the specific layout of the place where the march was held, but it's ostensible that it was not somewhere that would be accessible to persons with assistive devices ranging from wheelchairs to crutches to white tipped canes to even service animals (who are not devices, btw).

Oh, and for anyone looking to pull the "but I saw that guy over there in a wheelchair who was there" card, don't even bother. Using an example of one person who was ABLE to attend with an assistive device does not automatically invalidate the reasons others could not attend. Have two people in wheelchairs or two people with canes or with service animals or what have you does not automatically mean their circumstances and conditions are the completely the same and "if he/she/they did it, you should be able to as well!" is an argument I won't brook. Take it elsewhere to your own spaces, because I won't allow that sort of thing here in my space*.

There are also those with pain or fatigue disorders and disabilities for whom a march, rally, or protest are just NOT realistic. There are lots of folks for whom mobility is a big problem, or for whom the spoons to commit to such a march just aren't there because they need those spoons for such trivial things as self-care and doing laundry and eating and maybe going to work or school or taking care of others (partners, family, children, etc). I have a very, very good friend who has such a pain disorder. She has fibromyalgia as well as still undiagnosed joint pain and back problems. Standing without walking for more than fifteen minutes is hell on earth for her. Walking long distances without being able to take breaks just isn't something she is able to do.

Does this mean that people like her are automatically never able to be as antiracist as the OP because they can't join the march?

Let us also not neglect that many people have mental disorders, disabilities, and conditions that preclude such activities. A large crowd at a march could be uncomfortable or even traumatic for people with social anxiety disorders, people who are severely claustrophobic, people with certain symptoms of PTSD, or even those who have various types of autistic spectrum disorders.

Are they also unable to be antiracist and express that because they can't march in Tucson?

Of course, let us not forget that even for those who have what is considered a "able" body and neurotypical mind, such rallies might also not be possible. What about those people who fear the reaction from an employer or person in authority for going? What about those who fear for their safety from authorities because they've been harmed before, or know people who have?

Not everyone feels safe (and by safe, I mean, free from the risk of assault or attack not just free from criticism and other people's opinions) in such places.

A lot of folks - transpeople, LGBT people, fat people, women, the elderly - have very valid, real reasons for not feeling safe and secure in such a setting and those reasons are not excuses, either. Being in a place amongst many strangers, where the likelihood of encountering authority figures, the police, and the hostility others is often not safe for many. Yes, even at a march to protest Arizona's appalling immigration law.

Still, even for those who are able and would feel safe, there's still barriers. What about those who can't take the time from work because they need every single cent they can earn just to be able to eat? What about those who don't have access to transportation to and from that part of Tucson, or Tucson itself?

Having the financial resources to be able to attend is a privilege. Not everyone can afford to do such things. Are they automatically less antiracist, is the work they ARE able to do automatically dismissible?

I wasn't at that march. I completely support protests against the absolutely obscene, horrible, unforgivably bigoted law that Arizona passed. I don't think I could quite accurately describe just how wrong, bad, and evil such a legislative measure is and how dangerous it is.

I wasn't at the march, though. I live in NYC, and a trip to Tucson right now? Not something I could afford. Nor could I take the time off from the job I just got after two years of unemployment to go.

Does that make me less antiracist, does this make the ways I express antiracism, the way I practice it invalid?

According to the OP, because I do a lot of this via the internet, yes, it is invalid. Or at least a much lesser form of antiracism.

Beyond the scope of just antiracism and into the realm of social justice and intersectionality, the internet is many times one of the only safe, accessible means people have to speak out, find connections, get help, build community, and do social justice work.

What happens in online forums, on social networking sites, on blogs, and even in comments sections on the internet does count.

I don't claim to be any sort of an expert on all social justice, because I am still learning about how privileged I am and the things I do, many times unthinkingly, that hurt other people. I am still learning how to de-center my privileges and my privileged mind-set so that I can better listen to those who tell me about their lived experiences, so that I can better find ways to STOP HURTING PEOPLE WITH MY PRIVILEGE. I all caps that, because for me, personally, that's what it amounts to.

What we read and who we interact with and how we interact with them, even through a computer, has a powerful effect on our minds, our mindset, and thus our behaviors and actions. So what happens on the internet is real life, because it is part of what we think and do, and thus is part of us. It is not vacuum or a separated other realm with no consequences.

Everything from true love to suicides have been caused by what happens on the internet. People have found soulmates (I did, I met my husband on the internet, thanks much), people have been bullied via social networking to the point that they self-harm or commit suicide. Of my five closest friends? Three I met through the internet. My current job, the one for which I am paid very real money? It takes place MOSTLY on the internet, most of the information, content, and interactions I deal with in that position are ONLINE.

So when I read a remark "I'm sure your antiracist creds on the web are impeccable", it is nothing short of a slap in the face.

Actually, no, it isn't. Because the OP is someone who's opinions I do not value enough to feel personally hurt (though many times I have been angered). But it is insulting to me that "the web" is spoken of with such disdain, as if these very large parts of my life - meeting my husband, my job, my friends, my creative work, my political beliefs are invalidated because of the way and location they took place.

What you say on the internet matter, what you read matters, what games you play, what sites you visit, what material you publish - it matters. So if you engage in antiracism work on the internet, it is real life antiracist work, and it matters just as much.

So don't pick a point in time and ask "where were you" as though that is the standard by which all others must measure up, because that in and of itself is another way to reinforce many types of privilege, to set those who may have access and ability to do or attend something above those who don't.

That's precisely what we don't need, because the thing is? That's sort of the root problem with racism, ablism, sexism, homophobia. It's about setting some above others, about making some more valid, more real, more normal, more centered, more important. And reinforcing that just reinforces the very thing you may say you're trying to combat.


*Just a note about moderation. I will unapologetically be moderating the comments to this entry closely and very stringently. I can and will ban people, freeze threads, and otherwise clean house if you cross a line. I don't care if you think this is fair or right or if you think I only want people who agree with me to be heard here. Don't like it? Take it back to your own blog or LJ or website or whatever is YOUR space (you're perfectly free to do so). But it won't be permitted here.

Respect your fellow commenters, listen to each other, don't derail, don't come looking for cookies, and whatever you do don't give me any cookies (I'm on a cookie-free diet, thanks much).

Also, it is always perfectly acceptable to disengage if it gets too much for you. And I personally do not think any less of someone who steps away from a conversation/discussion when they realize it is becoming unproductive and hurtful. Emotions run very high with this topic (and with good reason!). It's perfectly all right to step away and give yourself time to process and really think before responding. No, really. It's not only okay, it's recommended.
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Well, bully for them, I can't -- I prefer to actually assess, you know, their work--I cannot TELL anything by facial expressions of a group of students sitting in regimented rows in a classroom

This, right here. I've taken online courses or courses with a heavy online component and I have to say that often times I'm better able to connect with an instructor more than I would be able to in a large classroom (or even a small one), because a lot of the complications of face-to-face interactions are removed. Plus, there may be students who look like they aren't paying attention or who don't engage in discussion much in a meatspace setting, but who ARE really learning, but discussion in a classroom is difficult for them whereas being able to work online allows them be more comfortable and to be able to think of responses and questions when it's best for them.

Also, I kind of get uncomfortable when people heavily rely on just social cues for things like that or to judge someone without any interaction or input from that person. People don't always display social cues in ways that would be obvious or correctly interpreted by a college instructor or a neurotypical person.

Or: I am right there with you. I think we sometimes overvalue the presence of a butt in a seat for a set amount of time as though if they show up between 9:00 and 9:50 three times a week that's better and more valid or something. IDK.

I sometimes wonder if this urge to invalidate online work (either academic or social justice or otherwise) is due to the fact that it is something that can be used to level the playing field at times, to lessen or devalue certain kinds of privilege. Of course, having access to computers/the internet is its own kind of privilege, but there is that element. I think a lot of the "anonymous = coward" comes from an innate anger of a privileged person that they can't directly lash out or punish someone else for pointing out their privilege the way they could in a face to face interaction. They can rant, rave, and yell - but they can't impinge on personal space or really threaten them. They lose some of that power and that must gall them.

Or: the venues that those scary hordes of PoC and PWD's and women and oppressed people used obviously doesn't count as much as stuff that's most accessible for privileged people.

I'll also add that there's probably a square on the bingo card about "white person instructing other people on how best to combat racism" (which his friend [info]medievalist hit a while ago by telling an American Indian that she should be learning one of the disappearing languages instead of blogging about (among other things) stereotypes in children's/YA literature.

I saw that whole ugly thing and there needs to be a "Ways White People Instruct Others On Racism With Their Superior Learnings" bingo card all on its own. I did however preemptively ban a few folks for the crap they said during that discussion, because anyone who presumes to tell someone what they may and may not find offensive and what parts of their own lived experiences count and don't count and who wants to set standards for what is a valid expression of SOMEONE ELSE'S STRUGGLE? That's someone who I'm not all that interested in welcoming into my space.

I think we sometimes overvalue the presence of a butt in a seat for a set amount of time as though if they show up between 9:00 and 9:50 three times a week that's better and more valid or something. IDK.

I have back pain, and putting my butt in a seat tends to exacerbate it. I'm taking distance courses right now, and the fact that I can take breaks when I need to and lie down until I feel better is all kinds of awesome! I really wish there were more opportunities for distance/on-line learning, and that people wouldn't have such a negative view of it.

I saw that whole ugly thing and there needs to be a "Ways White People Instruct Others On Racism With Their Superior Learnings" bingo card all on its own.

Not even "superior learnings"--Reese is a professor with a doctorate but somehow her doctorate isn't "as good" as a white person like medievalist's (in medievalist's mind, obvs).

They can rant, rave, and yell - but they can't impinge on personal space or really threaten them. They lose some of that power and that must gall them.

like not having access to poc spaces?

yep.

also i am amused at the ranting about how awful anonymity is, when most of the poc and allies involved in these discussions know each other well, off and online. they just have community that the likes of these folks are not a part of.



Certainly conversations I've had or observed over the past few years have made me stop referring to my off-line life as "real life".

That's a good point I hadn't thought about. I learned that much on the net, that affects my off-line life as well, that using the expression "real life" doesn't make sense. I think I'll start using "meatspace" instead. Thanks for making me reflect on that!

I love everything you've written here. I was recently upset that I couldn't attend an anti-Facist rally (I'm in the UK) because of my disability, I'd have loved to attend and add my body to the numbers, but I couldn't. So I spread the word online instead, it was all I could do.

I'm commenting to this reply because I tried to stop using "real life" or "RL" a while ago. I have close friends and productive (and some less productive) hobbies online. I use "3D world" for offline instead. *grin*

Imagining that marching is the most or only valid method of anti-racism is rather like imagining making slings for limbs is the only valid method of medicine...

You'd think someone who is a writer and supposed anti-racist would see the value in the work of W.E.B Debois, but I guess he didn't do enough marching to be worth reading about, right?

Imagining that marching is the most or only valid method of anti-racism is rather like imagining making slings for limbs is the only valid method of medicine...

I just got this terrible mental image of a clinic that works JUST like that. "But, doctor, I have cancer!" "Never mind that, just put your arm in this sling and don't move it for six weeks!" "How is that suppose to treat my cancer?" "..." "Well?" "But that's how medicine works. You're just arguing with me because you don't really want to be healthy. I don't even think you're really sick!"

Your metaphor is about as apt as a metaphor can get. Because it's precisely like that.


You'd think someone who is a writer and supposed anti-racist would see the value in the work of W.E.B Debois, but I guess he didn't do enough marching to be worth reading about, right?

Totes. Now, if he'd really been a true anti-racist, he would have found a way to make the U.S. renew his passport, come back from Ghana, and lived long enough to march beside Will Shetterly or at least somewhere that Will Shetterly could see him. THEN he really would have done something.

But, alas, no. He just sat around writing stuff and being an intellectual leader and producing the thousands of essays, articles, and books he wrote that had a profound impact on so many. He wasted all that time thinking and writing and influencing others when he should have been marching.

*shakes head*

Good post. Great coverage of the many aspects of the subject.

BTW, the OP has removed all the comments there.


I seriously do not have any words other than "This is a great piece." As an activist and a PWD, I thank you for so cogently picking apart exactly what's wrong with the "well, where were you at x or y event/protest/ etc.?" argument.

Really excellent post. That's about all I'll add because most of what I'd say has been covered already.

The Ever Moving Goalposts of Self Righteous Selfishness

It's interesting to me, that if I were to say, in response to that comment; "Have you lived your life as a minority in the US or elsewhere? Do you know what it is to walk down the street while black or brown (or wearing a lamda/rainbow flag, or using an assistive device or assitive animal)? No, I don't think so, I don't see that truth in your eyes."

I would be told I can't expect all anti-racists (or social justice activists) to be minorities, that some white people have good hearts and while they may not know the experience personally they want to handle prevent it from happening.

And yet, only people who show up to a march, are somehow truly against racism and have NOTHING TO LEARN ABOUT THEIR OWN PRIVILEGE or the OPPRESSION OF OTHERS.

Oh circular privilege logic - it's always going to be 'I'm better than you because I did xyz and I count xyz as more important than you'.

Also it is very interesting to me, and a sign of that continued navel gazing selfishness that this is also part of that statement:

"against racism since childhood in the '60s (when people got killed for it)"

Because 2009 and 2010 haven't had racial hate crimes, oh no. Certainly no one just died in Arizona self for being a damn Mexican who wouldn't go back to Mexico. A little girl (Aiyana Jones) didn't just die because cops didn't blink at potentially harming black children. No, people died before and in the 60's because of racism; it was BACK IN THE DAY, people died for it.

Only then.

Ugh, yeah, I'm irked as hell that there are people who subscribe to that particular aversive-think. You made valid points fiction_theory, but before I could even look at the ablism in that statement, everything else jumped out at me.

Re: The Ever Moving Goalposts of Self Righteous Selfishness

Ugh, yeah, I'm irked as hell that there are people who subscribe to that particular aversive-think. You made valid points fiction_theory, but before I could even look at the ablism in that statement, everything else jumped out at me.

There are about fifty distinct layers of rancid wrongness in his comment and I only went into about three or four of them in this post and there are probably a lot that even now I'm missing/less aware of because of my own privileges.

I could probably do an entire blog SERIES on the stuff that's wrong with those types of statements, the way they privilege the work of the privileged above the work of the oppressed, and the way that it pretends as though so many problems aren't "that bad" or "used to be worse".

Because like you so aptly stated, people are still getting killed for it.

I find that comment absurd. In addition to all the things you wrote that can make it impossible, or much harder than for more privileged people, to march, the fact that he discredits your opinion, instead of engaging with it, because you do not participate in the particular kind of anti-racism actions that he does shows that he's only interested in blowing his own horn and not in actually discussing any opinions he doesn't completely agree with. If he's not interested in learning, I can understand that he discredits all the teaching that goes on, for a large part, through the interwebs.
Sure, marches are useful in bringing about political change. But I wonder whether they're ever able to change the minds of individuals in the same, profound way as engaging with people, learning, whether in meatspace or on the web, can do. The political situation and the opinions of people are interdependent, in both directions. People's opinions obviously influence politics, but in some cases, the opposite happens; the acceptance for interracial marriages grew a lot after it was legalized and people realized that it did not cause the downfall of society. So both kinds of activism, and probably still many others, are important and valid.

To clear up one thing, he made that comment not to me, but to a user named kynn, who was in a discussion (I use that word rather loosely) with him in that thread and that's where his comment came from. I wish I had a screencap of the discussion thread so that the context and entire thing can be shown, but alas.

As for marches? They have their uses, certainly, and can be valuable tools in the right time/place/context - but I do think that a lot of the work of removing the more insidious kinds of aversive racism from our society and our thinking is BEST done on the internet/meatspace in a less formal, organized kind of way. After all, changing a law doesn't necessarily change the aversive behaviors people use against others.

Racism takes place on a lot of fronts, through a lot of means - so there's no reason to think that combatting it will happen through only one method.

Thanks. :)

Off topic: OH HAI THAR PETE CAMPBELL.

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I'm glad that you found my post useful. :)

This post rocks. The internet is real too. If the internet hadn't existed, I wouldn't be who I am today and online activism can make a difference.

The rampant privilege and devaluation of others' forms of activism in that comment managed to hit a load of my rage buttons.

Here via glass_icarus, and while you said you don't want cookies, I just wanted to drop by and thank you for making me think about what we do here in a new way.

You've made some good points that certainly caught my attention and reconsider my attitudes. Odd how my world view can get so constricted, habitual and stuffy. And, yet the world shape shifts constantly. Sometimes I need a good punch in the gut: a piece of good writing, a sudden insight, an experience.
Thanks.....

I am late because I was initially linked to this over the weekend of server moves and loading fail, but: this is an awesome post. Thank you for writing it. <3

I often think that the education I do on the web touches more people, and may be of more use, than anything I do face to face.

Now, while what I educate on is disability rather than race, I think the points are still valid.

Part of that is the fact that I live with a service dog, which means people feel they have the right to demand education from me face to face all the time - which I find quite offensive and tiresome.

When I educate on the web, I educate on my time, and on the topics of my choosing. I can sit here and draw parallels between different life events ablebodied people are familiar with and disability.

The people who are educated by me are a mix - there are some who come to my site, who read about some disability theory, a lot of what living with a disability is actually like, and a fair amount about my particular rare disorder; there are some whose ableist commentary I read and call out (and their readers, who see what I had to say); there are some whose misconceptions I more gently correct.

The way I educate is entirely in my hands. If I go to a rally or a march (assuming my body would allow it - HA!), I am bound by the organizers or the mood of the crowd. When I educate online, I am able to set my own tone - ascerbic at times, wry with laughter at myself at times, fiery with anger and condemnation, gentle with correction. It is in my control, which is in itself I think an act of defiance - that I, a woman with multiple disabilities decide and act on what I think is the proper approach and do things my way.

Call me a dreamer if you will, but I think a fundamental part of any movement towards equality has to respect the fact that we choose different tactics. If we are, after all, equals, then there is no cause to say that one mode of challenging the status quo is inherently invalid. If equality is truely the goal, then any way you challenge the status quo is working towards that.

But then, silly me, I'm assuming that actually accomplishing our goals is more important than who and how we do it.

(I am somewhat intrigued that the reCAPTCHA words I have to type, to send in this answer, are 'divinely of' - I am sure it is meaningless, but I am nonetheless intrigued by the pairing of words with this post, this comment - divinely of what?)

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